World 3 Report 7 Brad 04/24/201004/24/2010 46 For reference, this is specifically what I’m responding to: Roger Ebert – ‘Games Can Never Be Art’ Share this:Tweet
Does it matter who comments first?
Well, the animation turned out amazing, and load of credit to you Brad!
I reckon this was probably the most interesting progress report so far. Report 2 was the best, but this one was really interesting, and insightful.
@wallross: I’m curious which part you liked better, the animation or me ranting, heh. I’m thinking I should record me doing a FPM animation, those go much quicker and probably would be more interesting to watch get animated…
And what was best about 2? (for future reference, heh)
Lolz you put report 6 FAIL… i had to double post…
The title of the youtube video is Report 6 😛
About video games being art, I agree with everything you say. This Roger Ebert obviously played very few video games, and the ones that he played were brainless shooters. His opinion on Braid was an almost insult for a game that great. He just heard Santiago talk about it, he didn’t play the actual game, and it’s one of those games where it’s really about the experience.
FPA has it too, when I showed a friend of mine FPA he thought it was utterly lame, probably because of the somewhat simple (though good) graphics. Then I let him play the game and he said it was awesome. In FPA the art lies in the whole, if you just see someone play you’re missing the gameplay element, which in FPA’s case is absolutely great.
Aether was one of the best Flash games I’ve ever played. There’s no clear story, which is why it works, as you said, rather spiritual. It’s all about the feeling, you can’t convey that just into speech. Which is why Roger Ebert should play some decent games before judging how artistic they are/can be.
@Brad: Both were really interesting. The animation turned out great and the rant was truly inspiring, but only to game dev’s like us.
Out of report 2, the part that I liked the most was what you showed off. It was great, because I could see you releasing that as a demo.
As for the question of whether video-games are art, then yes they most certainly are. Art is really any type of media that stimulates your emotions or your senses. And video games most certainly do that.
But We need to go deeper. What factor of the game makes it art. Is it just purely the animation and the audio, or can the gameplay be considered art?
Although Brad has expressed his thoughts on the entire affair, I would like to back his ideas up.
Game play is the creator of the first impressions in the game. If the controls are stupid and the physics are just plain weird, then it becomes an instant turn off, no matter how visually stunning any of the graphics are. But this is just a subconscious reaction, nothing people really think about for more than 5 seconds.
If the game play has caused the game to make it past these initial moments of thought, then the game starts to think about the art and the animation.
Obviously, both of these factors in the game stimulate the senses, and, for good or bad, they are therefore classified as art.
And I will save you all the trouble:
I loved your arguments on games as an art form. It is often useful to make an analogy with other art media, like music. For instance, I find there is brainless, simply commercial music, as opposed to thoughtful, deep music (like classical music, jazz and much more). The classical music example is particularly useful, though, because it’s a style which you can’t simply listen to once and then decide on whether you like it or not; you must learn to appreciate it, train your ears. This property is carried on to videogames – if one does not ever play a game, how can they understand and appreciate something like Braid?
Very good progress report, even though besides the animation it was not very FPA-centered. Keep it up. 🙂
Nice video! Cool animations, and I agree with your arguement. 🙂
yeah. I was to hypnotized by the animating to hear the rant… maybe next time ill listen, lolz (also the fact that it was almost 4:00 am 😉 )
yes brad, i really enjoyed watching you animate.
people can learn lot about how to animate by watching some one who really knows what they’re doing, especially when watching you! and i can really understand why it takes so long though. i started tryin’ to work on some really smooth stuff the other day and it ended up taking about an hour just to do 30 frames on the guys hand! 😛 and i second the motion to release the science level as a demo! 😀 and also seeing fancy pants animated.
AWESOME! really cool video. And I guess it kinda depends on the game. The Jak and Daxter series (especially the first game) was a good example of art in a video game (scenery wise) but other things like story, detail… yep. I gotta say some of the best video games have a really good story line.
I have to agree with you one hundred percent on the art argument. I think I see why Roger feels that way though. His whole notion of “No game to date has will be like the great poetic masterpieces, literary geniuses or artists of olde” or whatever is completely utterly true. Games won’t, games don’t have to have to be compared with great poets, or artists, because that defeats the purpose of art altogether!
What Ebert goes wrong is by trying to analyze games in the way he would analyze a painting or a poem. You can’t do THAT! Heck, analyzing poetry or paintings is folly anyway. The definition of Art in itself is not complicated, but it’s not universally definable. It’s not complicated because it is a tool, and as humans, we can turn just about everything into a tool, so its completely individual, and for that same reason, it isn’t entirely definable. But it’s more than that, it’s feeling, its understanding, its a thing where many people can sit and look at the hardship and concentration of the artist, a vision of a dream, or of an opinion, cast onto canvas, onto papyrus, into life and into code. Heck, Sun Tzu turned War into Art by creatively describing strategies and doctrine.
Writing began as nothing but scribbles, built for economic and political purposes. It took man’s vision to put ideas and stories, and use the pen to write epics. Pictures were formed to represent current events, emotions and society, and they haven’t changed. I saw a gallery at my university called “The Atrocities of War” that showed the different parts of war, with each panel representing emotions and just…horrible things. But those panels would just be images without emotion and relevance.
Games now are our representation of society, the new medium to express “our” world. Its a way to create a link between our individual world, the world of the artist AND the world at large. I mean, Aether I thought was excellent, Edmund Macmillan’s message was clear. But one that really got me was Tri-achnid. The music, the art, the story… its that feeling, its that image. You feel the sadness, the loneliness of your character, you see its journey, its fight for survival. Thus it’s more about what YOUR semantic connection with the work is rather than the work itself. Fancy Pants 1 had something really… basic, but complex. The movement and action, the flow was all very complex, but because it was so smooth, it had this sort of charm to it, it was completely your own, and that was why I thought it was so good. Machinarium, another great example of art, you can see a connection with that universe, not that you’ve seen it before, but that, it represents some underlying thing you haven’t been able to represent in your brain.
Art is passion and hard work. It’s a refining of craft, its a desire, it’s a medium. It is completely individual. I look at art for the images that it creates in my mind, where it can lead me to, and what it creates. Criticism barres that imagination, and destroys any sort of free thought, restricts it, pins it down and tells it NO. NO thought, NO innovation, stay streamline.
I say YES to innovation, YES to thought, and YES to showing me your world. Because in my opinion, at the end of the day, the way one person is able, not only to express his/her world, but to express his/her perception of the world is Art. To be able to show of how your imagination runs, how it flows, what it thinks up is Art. Art cannot be defined. Art cannot be streamlined. And it sure as hell can’t be measured for its worth. It comes in all shapes, sizes, forms and colors. It’s yours, its mine, its free.
I think some few reports ago, Brad said there may or may not be a demo. I might be mistaken, though. As far as gaming as an art,first of all, did he even TRY to give an accurate definition of art. Personally, I think that art’s complex definition would really spark some controversy. In fact, if you ask great artists like Raphael or Michelangelo, they probably wouldn’t give you the definition you’d LIKE to hear.
Anyways, obviously, he never played games worthy of being called art. Some friend of his just pick-and-chose what games to prove her point. Based on these games alone, which look pretty darn good in my opinion, he took one glance and branded them for life.
To say video games will never be considered art is, well… a lie. Look at music that really speaks to you. The artist(s) don’t JUST do it to make sure it goes platinum and makes a few bucks. They did it to symbolize what goes on in their life or the lives of others. Developers make games to not only prove their worthy craft, but to immerse the gamer in a way no painting or movie ever did. And heck, games are chock-full of art; not just visually, but in it’s entirety (specifically if it’s pretty good). And if you eliminate the rip-roaring soundtrack, the awesome gameplay, or the fabulous graphics, the dust will settle to reveal it’s true story that is, in some form or another, overwhelming.
A good person once told me, “It’s bad to say always or never.” Unless you can see the future, always or never shouldn’t be used to make a point and end a debate. I have a ton of games to show Ebert to see if he can call them art. However, something like, oh, Super Mario Galaxy will be called successful, and Nintendo did it for their craft. So, why not call it art?! Same goes for Aether, if I may add.
Well I cant think of anything that hasn’t already been said.. heh.. but I completely agree with SplinterChaos. Actually I agree with everyones arguments. Good story, good scenery, character development, what they make you think and what they put in your head. Depends on your definition of art. Are you thinking of art as beauty? To us, beauty is as close to perfection as we see it (my definition) Or are you looking at is as a story being told. Sometimes when your looking as a artwork, you can wonder what was going through their mind and what gave them the inspiration do make THAT exact art piece. Maybe they added or removed something from the scene in their head as they created it because they either disliked it or some meaning to them. Anyways… video games are a sort of… art interaction? You go into the world, the creators world, and while you play you see the story that whoever has to tell.
I guess it depends your artistic taste… it really depends on that… What you think true perfection or art is. Maybe it’s an explosion! Fast action? A vehicle chase through on the cliffs of some Uncharted island. Or maybe the thrill of fear, or the adrenaline you get from the game. Could that be art? As I said before (and I’m sure some of you have said already) it’s your definition of art, what you see as perfection.
A “masterpiece” is perfection of art.. or as close to perfection as the viewer or “artist” sees perfection. Are game creators, developers etc.. not “artists” when they are working to create something in their mind is “perfect” or whatever their aiming for. The definition of “artist”: a person whose creative work shows sensitivity and imagination. This means people making the game ARE artists and that the game (to them or certain people depending on what your perception of art is) IS art.
I’m pretty sure some of what I said might have already been said but hey…
humina humina humina? YEAH!
I just figured I would because every one else was typing half a book…
Dude, I know the edit button is broke, but that doesn’t give you an excuse to triple post. If you forgot something, then just leave it out. The first post was unnecessary, the second was kinda needed and the third was needed, but not enough to triple post.
@FreedomForAll: Oh, no, you’re definitely not the only one to get yelled at on this site, heh. The worst offenders were probably edited or deleted, though, so…
Pretty awesome responses from everyone, though, I think they’re definitely helping me realize why the whole thing rubs me the wrong way to such an extent. It seems like everyone sort of saw their own thing in World 1, I sort of feel like they have to because of it’s utter simplicity. As I add new features and more content, especially with World 2 because if feel it was such a step up, I’m just utterly paranoid in losing that intangible quality that I’ve decided had to be the ‘art’ in FPA.
So as I work on World 3, I’m more careful to make sure I put more of myself into the game than just simple pre-established gameplay mechanics for their own sake.
So I’m basically hearing from an established voice that I’ve been chasing something that just plain doesn’t exist for the past 3 years of my life. Not to mention when all is said and done, I’m literally banking the rest of my life on World 3. That’s just not something that I can take sitting down.
There was one part in FPA 1 where you got the power up for wall jumping, and had to race to get to the top. It totally reminded me of the original Rayman. If I were to see another level like that, that would be awesome.
Again… I agree with splinterchaos. And Brad, seeing you say that makes the game mean more to us. It really does 😛
Ebert maybe had bad experience with video games in the past? Or maybe he just never opened his comfort zone to video games thinking that they are to competitive or to hard. Or maybe he’s like those people who want to ban dodge ball from schools, because the people who want to ban it always cried when they got it or things didn’t go their way or maybe they just always got picked last because they sucked at the game of never played any physical sports. Whatever the reason, he’s wrong.
Ebert is just on a high horse. He regards the great poets, playwrites and artists with such awe that he disregards any up and becoming art and calls it “lesser” or non-existent. He’s like that kid that goes “I am soo much better than you…Hah, you call THAT art, haw haw haw haw! <–Snooty laugh"
I think splinterchaos might be my long lost brother…
Where is this non-existent “edit” button of which you speak?
We can all agree that you can’t say somethings all that bad until you try it with an open mind. Then give what you thought, don’t go completely on other’s words and opinions when they themselves don’t approach video games with open minds. Or maybe they even got their ideas from someone else who’s knowledge (or experience) with video games is negative.
Well, your animation is very fast, i see… mine takes max 30 seconds to make 1 frame…. i use maya… i am waiting for the release of the demo… i sent this from my new iphone 3gs os 4.0…..
I believe the edit button should last for around half an hour.
Brad, you have inspired a vast load of discussion on the forum:
Hmm, this is odd. I get no edit button, even though it hasn’t been more than a minute since my previous post, and it says “Logged in as .” above this field…
Personally I don’t wish to make the edit time longer because I don’t want to edit a comment so it’s *ahem* proper for the site and then have the comment redited by the poster because they can.
Just makes it more difficult 😛
Long comments scare me. I was impressed Brad. Can’t wait for the next one !
i no raed i ees 2 lazzzzy.
why are we wasting our time on some old man who compares video games to shakespear? he’s wrong, video games are a style of art,same way that poetry, literature, etc would be.so thats the end of story. you dont have to waste half a book talkin bout stupid old ppl, he’s wrong, and even if he is, he is entitled to his opinion. and why do we keep on saying crap about him, when HE’S NOT EVEN HERE TO GET OFFENDED? lolerwaffle, can we get back to our un-seriousness now?
i never said he wasnt, wats lightning lambic perimeter?
Oh yeah. Dude, shakespeare was a genius. Lilting iambic pentameter is a way you write focusing on stresses.
In belmont was a lady richly left
– ^ – ^ – ^ – ^ – ^
So that when you say the line, you focus your stresses on the Bel, or was, or la. (anything with ^ under it)
So now you’re wondering “Why? Why is that important?”. One, because its really tough to do, and two, because it really helps the actor once he realizes how to use it. Not only does it make memorizing shakespeare WAYY easier, it also functions as a way shakespeare directs the actor through the script. (He does a lot more in the script than Iambic pentameter though. WAY way more. Thats also why at the beginning, A LOT of people hate shakespeare, because his writing seems complex. It is elaborate yes, but its all there to help).
And we are voicing our opinion on the philosophy of Art while at the same time talking about Ebert. It’s true that he is entitled to his opinion, but hey, so are we.
kool. but i could write a play like that. is it supposed to rhyme cuz i could do that… maybe…
why hasnt anybody commented?
you could always head over to the forum
there is usually quite a bit more activity there than the main site.
I’m very excited for ProgRep8. The only thing that has been getting me through my day.
Well jeez I’m at the Newgrounds office right now… World 3 was playing on their stickam feed a moment ago though…
I heard Tom Fulp call FO “Miss Borne”
Only 20 minutes until the awards. Yay!
Might be a bit late for this, but I have a lot to say about Roger Ebert. I would just post it here, but it would be too long. So here’s my comment:
I think Roger Ebert should play “Riven” and come back to his arguement.